Puppetry’s landscape in Bangalore

Transcript by Arunesh Varade (Twitter, Instagram, and Linkedin)

 

KN: Are we puppets or do we have a free will? Well, we’ll be not diving into this age old philosophical question, but just trying to understand the history and broad landscape of puppetry as an art form in Bangalore and more. Today, I have Anupama Hoskere with us on Audio gyan. She’s the founder of Dhaatu, a non-profit organization that seeks to introduce our children, our traditional wisdom and tales through puppetry. She did her engineering from BMS College of Engineering, Bangalore with master’s degree from California State University, Long Beach. She’s also a performing Bharatanatyam artist. Anupama creates scripts and also directs her puppet shows, and today we are here to know more about it. So thank you Anupama for giving your time and it’s a real honor to have you on Audiogyan. I would like to thank you more because you came out from a busy schedule since you have few shows lined up in Bangalore. So, yeah, welcome to the show. 

 

AH: Thank you and the pleasure’s mine. It’s always nice to talk about puppets. 

 

KN: Yeah. So I’ve come up with four to five questions and obviously my knowledge about puppetry in general has been, just very basic and primary because I did one interview with Dadi Pudumjee a few months back and that’s where I was just introduced. So I’ll leave to you how you want to take the conversation forward, but yeah, these are just points which I’ve come up with.

 

AH: Sure.

 

KN: Yeah, so to begin with Dhaatu has been organizing puppet festival since 2009. Bangalore had not witnessed a puppet festival for 21 years before that. I mean, this is an excerpt, which I found in one of your articles. So can you start by painting us like a panoramic or a landscape picture of how has puppetry been as an art form in Bangalore? And what was it like before? What is it now? Just a broad idea. 

 

AH: Sure. See the history of the land goes back to hundreds of years. So Bangalore itself is a very new city. So we will not go to the history of the land, which will take the whole of the half an hour. So we’ll just stick to how it was in Bangalore. Growing up in Bangalore, there were a few, very few puppet shows here and there. And then there were innovations in puppetry, but then they were all for the theater, not for puppetry for itself.

 

There have been, you know, few shows considering the size of the city and the population. Two shows in a year is almost nothing. By the time I became an adult and I was looking to perform, and to learn more than perform first. It was hard to find even a teacher who teach and why did I want to learn?

 

My relationship with dolls has been forever, I think, and then I would do storytelling. Storytelling using puppets was something I really wanted to do because I made my own Panchalikas, wooden dolls with movement using which I would do, you know, tell children stories. Then that wasn’t enough and I needed to go, you know, have more dimensions, more color, more visual, more entertainment.

 

And then it was, I toured Karnataka quite a bit at that time, looking for a teacher to learn puppetry. Then I found guru M. R. Ranganatha Rao in Bangalore from whom I learned. And then, when I learned puppetry, people were literally shocked that I was spending time as a puppeteer and not as an engineer. Because it literally was going from a seat of power to a begging bowl.

 

And they looked at me in a very strange manner when I said, I want an auditorium, I want to do a puppet show. I need lighting, I want to do a puppet show. It was as bleak as that. And at that time, my sir told me that for 21, 21 years ago, they had a grand puppet festival in Bangalore where lots of people came from around India and then people in Bangore also enjoyed it.

 

I said, what about for the past 21 years? He said, well, nothing happened. So that year I said, well, it’s time that we did something. And we did the Dhaatu puppet festival in 2009. 

 

KN: Wow. And what was the, like, just a broad premise with your teacher, like he used to perform? Or what was the scene like back then?

 

AH: His grandfather was a performer. He had performed at the Mysore court and there is a place near Bangalore, it’s called the Moodalapaya, the core of Karnataka. Badavalpaya is the coast. Inland of Karnataka, Moodalapaya, we have the folk art and we have puppetry. So this has many divisions within that. And one part of it used to perform in the court in raja’s court.

 

So the story goes that the queen gave her own sari to the Bhama puppet which performed and said, in the next half of the play, let the puppet wear my sari come and perform.

 

KN: Wow.

 

AH: So we have all kinds of such stories. Even in a village, I heard that they were doing Markandeya story, when the mother was pregnant with the baby, that is baby Markandeya, I’m talking puppets. The whole village would come and, you know, we have the ceremony where the ninth, ninth month it’s a, one of the Shodasha Samskaras, where for the mother they will give her bangles and fill her, what do you call serugu, the pallu with all kinds of goodies. So the whole village would come and do it to the puppet.

 

So there would be a pause. Everybody would stop and they would sing songs and then the puppet would be placed in the middle and people would come. It’s called Madal Tomoro in Kannada. They would do that for the puppet. So this was the kind of, you know, anubhava, rasa anubhava that people had. It was almost real for them.

 

So I have gone through villages and heard such stories. So such things existed, post independent social changes, poverty, no encouragement and such things led to people giving up all of this. 

 

KN: So was this because there was so much, like, there was so less of entertainment in other forms or is it because the art form itself had a lot more to give back to the community?

 

AH: I would say both because people bonded. Even if they had, it’s not like they didn’t have other forms of entertainment, they all existed. See if you take, which happens in any village in Karnataka which has a temple, which is most of them, they celebrated that time with all the arts. So art is an integrated part of life.

 

You, you know, it was not separate. It was part of celebration, utsava of any kind, had entertainment. And in that there were many kinds. And this was one of the favorites of the people of this region. Bangalore, Mysore, Tumkur these districts, Moodalapaya districts, have always been rich in the art of puppetry. 

 

KN: Does it all the way go to Chitradurga because you see a lot of wooden stuff happening there also, right?

 

AH: It is, that is also, it is spread in this area and not today for hundreds of years. I would even say thousands of years. 

 

KN: Cool. So on the similar lines, I was just doing some research about you and you have taught and presented your puppetry work in France, Belgium, China, and also many parts of India.

 

So what have been your observations in these various places? I want to understand, what is the state of it as compared to India. And are there any patterns which you have discovered with respect to different forms of profit? Because industrial revolution took place in Europe first, and then it came here, right. So, or any other, maybe any other forms, which have evolved from it and how has that impacted bangalore?

 

AH: See revolution happened in the west. Evolution happened in the east. So since for art, you need to be there all day, you’ll be surprised that they have carried it well, they have you know, they have done research on it and it’s documented and it’s formalized, structured to teach.

 

But if you ask them anything, I’m not exaggerating on this. Anything okay. When I say, oh wow, this stringing, I’m specifically talking about string puppets, which is known as marionettes in Europe. Any complicated mechanism, I go and ask, oh, this is fantastic. Can I see this? They say, why it came from your country?

 

I say, when did it come from my country? Where is it in my country? They say, huh? Maybe 200 years ago, 300 years ago. Throughout my journey there, I’ve gone to villages. So this is one thing which really surprised me, which made us do the puppet bus stop close by here. Dhaatu puppet bus stop is there with puppets, traditional puppets of Karnataka, because then I said, where is all of this?

 

You know, I come here to Europe and people say, hi, it’s all there. It’s yours. And like, let me see. I want to see what came from my country and how it got modified. So this has been you, you know, a wake up call for us.

 

KN: So you’re saying when you come back and try to see those same things in India, it’s missing or is it somewhere remote?

 

AH: It’s not missing. It’s just that you have to work on it and create it. We have done it. It’s not missing anymore. The techniques, the stringing techniques, which I’m talking about now is done. And now I also understand why it is done. Why did it come from here? To do storytelling. See, we have all kinds of characters in our mythology. Okay, why mythology? You take from Sri Lanka to Ayodhya, Ramayana is covered. Take Dwarka to Pragjyotishpura, Assam, Mahabharata covers it. So if you want India, right? If you want to understand India, you take these two. If you want to understand Indians, who is this? Who am? I am this, you know, I’m not what I appear.

 

I am who I am. So how do I understand, how do I investigate and invest into that success system? For this, these stories have it in a very colorful manner and the storytelling is beautiful. It is called Mahakavya when all the Navarasas are used, right? All emotions are used in balance. It is like good food.

 

If you put too much salt, bad food, too much carrot, bad food. But when it’s all in balance, it’s good menu. You know, you go, aha! That is Rasaswadana. Even in art, it is like that. So our epic stories are balanced and entertaining and colorful, and also give you many dimensions. It’s like the temple doors opening one inside the other.

 

If you just want the outer, just enjoy the sculpture and go home, which is the, just the apparent puppet show. If you want to investigate further, open your mind, it is available to you. So this kind of a thing needs that kind of control systems where you also entertain with the surprise elements. And that is why we evolved it over time.

 

And when only one dimension of apparent design, see design can be at many levels, just the control system design. How, when you pull the string, what happens to the puppet? It has been taken to the west and they have made it into realism. It is very appealing, but it does not sustain you over and over again, because for the intelligent mind, if you do a slap stick, once, twice, third time, you know what is going to happen, your laughter will decrease.

 

But if the design isn’t intriguing, then you open up and you wonder. See our storytellings are all cyclic, nested. It is never a straight line. It is never beginning, middle and end. It is always one inside the other. Anything you touch Panchatantra, Kathasaritsagara, Mahabharata, Ramayana, anything you touch, it is all one within the other. So the mind asks what’s next? And this is the same thing adapted in our theater arts. Puppetry is a theater art. 

 

KN: When you compare with the west, you see the art form being made more realistic, right? So what is being evolved here? Is it the storytelling? Is it the stories itself? 

 

AH: Everything is evolved. 

 

KN: No, no. I’m asking about evolving. What is evolving?

 

AH: Everything is evolving because anything which is static, dies. And we don’t have museums in our country. We are not a museum cultured nation. We are a living museum.

 

KN: Wow.

 

AH: Each one of us, each city, each street is a museum. Our art itself is a museum, but it is dynamic. It is not a static museum. So anything static in India is boring. In India, in order to succeed, you have to be dynamic. Your art has to be dynamic. That means it has to keep up with the times. That means anything we do is already contemporary. If I am not contemporary, I cannot be. That is the taste of the people.

 

KN: But then how do you still tie back to the roots? Every art form which has originated from India starts off with mythological stories, right? So be it Ramayana or Mahabharata. I’ll give you an example because with Dadasaheb Phalke’s Kaliya Mardan, right, it was rooted in mythology even Girish Karnad’s Yayati. In fact, even you have performed stories of a physically challenged child and a single mother of Ashtavakra and many more.

 

So two parts to the question. One is, if you’re being contemporary, then what is that relationship with the past, which is tying us? And second is, do you still think that puppetry still needs to tell those stories of morals and values or there is some contemporary storytelling format to it as well? 

 

AH: See, I am an entertainer. My job is to entertain the people. Now I have found the tools, the empirical formula, which I can use to entertain people, which has given me success, right? No, I know repeatedly, if a result comes in a lab, right, it is universal. Then you accept the theorem and say, this is correct. Okay. This is universal.

 

Let us go ahead with it. So we have such tools in our country. Now aim of the game is to have a successful show, have repeated audience and to make them feel happy. What makes them feel happy? Now they really don’t care whether you do contemporary, whether you do traditional or whatever it is, why do they come?

 

Because they feel good. They go with this aha, nice! So to get them to do this ‘aha, nice!’ in a city like Bangalore, where everybody thinks so much about each child goes to at least nine classes on an average. And at fourth standard they’re already getting ready for IIT, so their brain works like this.

 

Then I understood that ancient Indian brain also worked like this. You yourself have given the answer to your question. You said the Mahabharata. What is that? Purana. Let me define the word, purana. Pura iti navam, that is, which is new again and again. That, which is new daily, is a Purana.

 

So the issue is contemporary. What is not contemporary there? The geographical location is ancient, gives mystery. The form is colorful and we like colors. See our cinema. What becomes a box office hit there. You have to have Sanjay Leela Bhansali ‘s working there for people to go and say, wow. So we are a culture, we are a tropical country. We have sun, the sun gives colors. The color gives, we have just done Mālavikāgnimitram by mahakavi Kalidasa, which talks about exquisite within the play. He talks about exquisite craftmanship of first century BC. So first century BC craftmanship is used in his play as an important tool, the signatory. So we have developed all of these skills and we are really party time people.

 

We like to enjoy life. So if we act, we like all colors, good food. We like good clothing. And if you don’t give all this to the puppets, why will people come? They won’t come. The general masses I’m talking about. See, you can go exclusive. We are not exclusive, we are inclusive. For success to happen, you have to be part of society. In our society, the sun is the first one who says, get color market says, get color, people say, get color. And we all have too many problems. We are karma bhoomi. Again, if I get those people to the auditorium and say cry, we are all doomed today. There is no air, there’s no water, there’s no space. Let us all sit and cry. What’s the big deal? Why am I doing this, right? Instead, I might tell them to repair how we can get air, water, and light without even them knowing it’s happening. It is by the way, if they want to pick up, this is what I said when it is layered.

 

So the system we choose can either be just apparent. Which does not stimulate the intellect, it becomes boring. These are not to be done because Bharata Muni says in the Natyashastra itself that is not the purpose. Our job is to entertain. We are artists, so we have fun and they have fun.

 

KN: But that entertainment shouldn’t be an ignorance entertainment, right? It should be a very conscious entertainment.

 

AH: Correct.

 

KN: So how do you draw that line? Because in this day and age it’s very difficult to have that vivek to understand what is pure entertainment and what is just entertainment? In fact, I did one interview with Amrit Gangar, who’s a famous film critic, and he said, manoranjan nahi hona chahiye, chittaranjan hona chahiye. So how do you differentiate that?

 

AH: The basic design. What do I do? See when I do a puppet show, what do I want to do? What do I hold onto? Where does my design come? What is my focus? It is Rasaswadana, creation of rasa. Creation of rasa is a system where we do many actions on stage represented with many props, colors, whatever, and the audience is, ah, this is nice.

 

The audience appreciates it. Not at just a mundane level, at a mindlessness level. Even for a split second, the audience becomes mindless when they say, ah, so that is the focus. That’s where we are going. And in order to get there, it has to be the entertainment you do. That is the entertainment we do.

 

So this Ananda, which the experience is supposed to be a glimpse of the Brahmananda. So this is sustainable, it is not an impulse. Whatever is felt through this art form is sustainable today, tomorrow. Even if you remember that after five days, it’s like good food taste. Your mouth will water, you’ll say I want that mango. Let’s go get it. Or whatever food. So that sustainable taste is created through the entertainment. In order to create the sustainable taste, one has to have responsibility. We can’t go against what is the mainstream culture. It doesn’t pay eventually, right? You can do something, but financially you’ll crumble, you cannot sustain.

 

So we keep the sentiments of the people intact. And when you talk about the human mind, it is eternal. So if I invest today, my great-grandchildren, if they’re performing or somebody else, students will come and perform, they will all still perform the same show. They can get audience. And this is the greatness of investing in the mythological system, because the core is contemporary and it’ll hold. Now I have Ashtavakra for example, a physically special child with single mother and the grandfather is wondering, how do we respond to the situation which is very contemporary. 

 

KN: Actually, these are timeless. 

 

AH: Hmm. So the problem will remain, see social problems never go away. But if you fix a social problem with geographical data and time and solve it, it becomes useless. But if you can see it from a larger, from systemic perspective, that is what art does. So that is why we choose this over somebody wearing today’s dress and coming on stage and talking the same thing. So the speech you get here, the Vachika, what it is called is also designed to give knowledge about the country, the geography, the people, and also give a choice of this is possible. Use it if you want. So that’s where in the puppet theaters, Vachika becomes very important.

 

KN:Vachika is the script?

 

AH: Everything, anything sound. Vaak is the root word, anything connected with sound. Maybe the music, maybe the ragas, maybe the chhandas. You know, the prosodies, the similies, all of this is used to entertain. So it is not just a form. It is all of these also matter. They make the puppet play powerful and these are all available to us.

 

KN: So I know, like we can’t, or we shouldn’t compare art forms, but this is my personal curiosity, just to understand. So I was speaking with Dadi Pudumjee as I mentioned. And I asked him, what is the difference between puppetry and theater then, right? Because puppetry is, yes. I understand, like at a broader level, there’s significant difference, but at a storytelling level, what is the difference? So to that, he said puppets to something, to this effect that puppets make the messenger opaque, but more focusing on the message itself. So you have any thoughts around that, if you have to compare?

 

AH: Sure. See again, let us, this is not new. 10th century, we have Rajasekhara’s Bal Ramayana. In the Bal Ramayana, we have Ravana, his minister and then Sita. Okay. Sita is a puppet in the theater. Then there Sita has a speech instrument in her mouth through which she professes love to Ravana, in Bal Ramayana puppet show. Bal Ramayana is a theater. So what one understands here is everything has its specialties and its limitations. With the puppet theater, its specialty with the wooden puppets that we do, the string puppets that we do, cuteness factor is very high. So cuteness factor, if you take an ad today, we know what it means. If something is very good, people will watch again and again. So we have this with us. Second, puppets don’t have ego. That is pretty much, I think what Dadi is trying to say when he says messenger is opaque. But we are storytellers, we are not trying to sell anything.

 

I’m telling you again, that is by the way. I have responsibility and I can create. It’s like a rangoli if you see a rangoli pattern, it’s intricate. But I’m not showing off the intricacy, it’ll not be visible to you. Nothing should be visible to you. You just get entertained and go home and think about what happened.

 

KN: This is very beautiful.

 

AH: Yeah. So here, the cuteness factor, the loss of ego is something I work with and I can make them fly. I can do any such thing. See, in dance, if your dancer has to fly, they are akashacharis. They just do an action in theater where they say, okay, now I’m flying.

 

Of course you can pull the actor by strings and take them up. That is another way of doing it, realism. So with all these things, I have done this work. So I have answered this question to myself. About 11 years ago, I said, where does the puppet lack? Emoting. In our language emoting is called satvik anubhava . Okay. What is the anubhava audience gets if this doesn’t emote anything, this wouldn’t think, where does the emotion come, was a curiosity in me?

 

I was getting it, but I couldn’t define it. Now, I can define it. First, we get it in when we carve it. When I carve my puppet, the face has the emotions I want to tell.

 

KN: But isn’t it static throughout the show then?

 

AH: No, you move the puppet. You use angika, the movements of the hands. I can give upangas, like eye movements, I have puppets which do all that and that communicates the body language.

 

The puppet can bend the head can bend. So this emotes to the audience. I have a beautiful dancer puppet. Then I said to what extent will people see this? My daughter Divya, she’s 21 now, danced with the puppet 11 years ago. And I told her, let’s do a duet between you and the puppet. She was also doll like.

 

It is there for everybody to see on YouTube, it is called abharana where you can really see what happens when a beautiful dancer, a good dancer comes with a beautiful puppet. Will you see the puppet or the dancer? Will you see both? And after 10 years of experimentation with this, we have now done a 20 city tour in the US of Mālavikāgnimitram, where Malavika is human, the rest of the characters are puppet.

 

KN: Wow.

 

AH: Agni mitra is puppet. Her dance teacher is a puppet. So people just went crazy watching this show. We had, I mean, they had so much fun and everybody’s like, wow, we’ve never seen anything like this before, so it can sustain. So it comes to sustainability. One is whatever is yours.

 

You know, you, you are the queen there. And we have those with us. After that we have limitations. Now you see, how do I cross the limitation? Every art form has limitations. So we have stretched that and really had fun doing this. So it can go anywhere. The human puppet interaction, like I told you, is not now. I can tell you Somadeva’s Kathasaritsagara, there is the character of Swayamprabha who comes and lands with a suitcase. She wants to make friends. She opens the suitcase and there are puppets in that. So this storytelling itself has used human characters with puppets. So that interaction is not new. But for us, it has been a work of 10 years of experimentation and refinement and we have succeeded and doing it. So we have the, we can take the advantage of both.

 

KN: Beautiful. So, yeah, I’m actually speechless. I don’t know what to say on this because there’s too much like interesting things that you’re sharing. I would like to conclude with one last question and this is a slightly personal question. So, with puppetry, what worries you every night when you go to bed and what makes you wake up with like full enthusiasm that you are coming with today.

 

AH: Currently, my worry is that I don’t have time to sleep. Every night, I’m still working because I have Navaratra coming up and I have shows coming up. On a serious note, nothing worries me. I’ve been there. You know, I’ve done my thing. I’ve enjoyed every minute. I often ask if I go away tomorrow what didn’t I do? You know, what can I do? Or what should I have done? I don’t take a load on me. There is no load. Whatever I’ve done, I’ve done earnestly. I’ve done to the less capacity, but am I satisfied that if there is a tomorrow, will I not work on it? No. Every show I’ll work more and I’ll make it better. So, but there are no worries. There’s no load. 

 

KN: What about puppetry as an art form into the future, for future generations, because I want you to share that thing, which we were discussing before the recording. 

 

AH: Sure. So when when I went to Belgium, they said miracle has happened. An unknown lady from India has come and she’s teaching in ULB, 108 year old university at a masters level for the first time. I’m like, wow! I didn’t know that. How did this happen? Things happen. So we as artists should not bother about whether what we do will sustain, if it is good enough, especially in our country. If you are very good, if you are super, you know, if you’re excellent, people remember you for a short while.

 

If you are a genius, they will remember you for a long time. If you are mediocre, in front of you, you may be a powerful mediocre person. They’ll say, haan your art is very nice. You are very nice. The minute you’re gone, your art is gone. So that test of time, if it has to stay, it’ll stay.

 

If it has to go, it’ll go. So it depends on how good it is. How sustainability is and what use it is to people. See if people like it, it is useful to them, they’ll keep it. And if it is not, they will not keep it. So, I really should not worry about this. But do I have desires about puppetry? Yes, I do.

 

I have dreams. I say, yeah, we should have puppet theaters in India and I should do this culture center where we can have, you know, puppet gallery people can come and make puppets have fun with it because I have so much fun with it. And I know it can be a very, very happy experience. So I want to give this experience to whoever wants it.

 

And I keep thinking about it. It’s not a worry, but it’s like an excitement. Excitement of creating these ideas and wanting to do this. And that is there in me every single day. Every single day before I go to bed, I add one more note to my mental diary. I don’t write it, but I store it in my mind.

 

Someday I need to put it down. But in my mental life, I say, ah, this is one more feature, which will be very nice for the city, which will be very nice for the country. And it’ll be nice for bonding, especially in today’s virtual world, we need to bond, we need to work with our fingers.

 

We need to be grounded and we need to laugh loud and we need to make mistakes. And we need to forget time. You know, we need all of this and puppetry is really, really a nice thing with which you can do all of this and that is a dream. Yes. 

 

KN: Alright. Any concluding thoughts you want to give on puppetry as an art form for listeners how they can engage with you or Dhaatu?

 

AH: Sure. We don’t have enough puppeteers in India. We have so much we can do. And my dream, I have to tell you this, I need to have a hundred students. I’m a very strict teacher. My students run away, because I expect a lot and I demand a lot. I teach a lot. I have no bars. I want to teach whatever I know I’ll teach, but if there’s anybody out there who really wants to learn and learn for learning sake, that’s good enough. And then they can pursue or don’t need to pursue it, doesn’t matter. We welcome them. 

 

KN: In Bangalore only, or any other places in India, if people have to come and work or learn with you?

 

AH: You can come in the summer, if you’re not in Bangalore. We will welcome you because today we need to come together and exchange ideas.

 

We did do puppet panache with the architecture and design students, because we wanted them to make puppets. And we thought we will learn from their perspective. We have a traditional methodology in perspective, and we have lots to give and share. And they are new thinkers and we should always involve them and we should always bring things together.

 

And that is where you progress. And we have given these incentives, but everybody’s busy with exams so nobody can participate. There are real reality checks. But for those who are beyond all this, they can come and learn. 

 

KN: Yeah, I think this is a good note to end this. So obviously there’s lot more to be documented from you about puppetry in general in India. And yeah, it would be a great honor once you’re relatively free, maybe we can have a longer session to document some nuances about it, some background history and other things and what Dhaatu is doing more. But yeah, on that note, I think thank you. Thank you for giving your time. And it was really a pleasure talking to you. 

 

AH: Thank you. It was fun talking to you too. All the best. You’re doing wonderful work. 

 

KN: Thank you. Thank you. Okay. That’s it.